Drop-Off Problems

[GirlMomma]

All of my picks and drop offs are done outside, except for the one child - my 15 month old.

I have had DCG3 since September. Almost every day, she cries and throws a fit a drop off. Lately, the fits are progressively getting worse! Last week, DCG came in kicking and screaming and kicked another child. I asked the parents to talk DC up on the way and make a big deal about seeing her friends. I asked them to make sure she walks, not to carry her.

On Friday, she walked in perfectly! However, today she refused to walk in. Dad had to put her in the door and I had to pick her up and sit her down in the foyer as she was kicking and screaming. I then asked DCG to take her shoes off and she told me no, which earned her a timeout.

I’ve had kids take a long time to adjust to the transition, anywhere from 3 weeks to 3 months. But this is excessive. After the child kicked another child last week, I told DCM this behavior will not be tolerated. Any suggestions on what to do?

[Cat Herder]

I'd give a two-week notice of termination, if no change after then, bye. Also, child goes home for any violence towards other children, every time, for those two weeks.

She can be mad, she can't be violent. She is 3, that is ridiculous.

I'd probably get her a small red rug/placemat, "the mad spot", and tell her she can go sit there until she isn't mad anymore. I'd have a popper or other small engaging manipulative for her to knead, pop or roll as a focal point.

The two week notice is to engage her parents in doing their part or they have a consequence, I'd do my part quietly.

[PB&J]

We have (had; I recently walked away from daycare) favorite activities for kids in the morning. It allowed for peaceful time as we waited for all the drop offs and breakfasts to be done. The kids could only get their bag/basket if they came in pleasant and ready, and the activity was only available at that time of day (so it was a special time). Otherwise we told them “it looks like you’re not ready to join us” and they sat on mat with either a SMALL toy, book, or nap blanket (sometimes we told them “it looks like you’re already needing a nap!”). But if she’s been like this daily since September AND she’s violent to the others, I’d have a hard time keeping her in my home. Is she ever pleasant? That’s a long dang day if not (and a horrible start to your every work day either way). Did you ever just say “knock it off kid” and walk away from her?

[Blackcat31]

But if she’s been like this daily since September AND she’s violent to the others, I’d have a hard time keeping her in my home.

Yes, this is concerning. I am not sure I could continue trying to change things if this has been going on for so many months now.

[GirlMomma]

Oh yes, I’ve also told her to knock it off and she really will stop once she is inside and away from her parents. It’s like she knows they have no authority.

[Blackcat31]

In cases like this, I will provide an incentive (or a consequence) for drop off and/or pick up behavior. Refusing to walk, telling me no and refusing to take their own shoes off would have netted the child activities and play to those matching her behavior (babyish). Behaving like a "big kid" nets them a whole lot more fun since "big kid" activities and play are much more exciting than those activities and toys the littlest ones in care have access to.

For example, during art time only the big kids get to use paint, markers, scissors etc. The littles use crayons, water colors and pre-cut shapes etc.
I also do art time in two separate groups at two separate tables so they child behaving like a little kid sits at the little art table. The big kids sit at the big kid art table.

If we have a movie or special video, only the big kids get to participate as it's part of rest time and little ones need to have the FULL rest period.
I also have two sides to my play ground. Once is for the littles and one is for the big kids.
I have 2 dolls houses...2 kitchen centers and two block centers etc.... big kids use one center and the littles use the other.

HOW the child behaves at drop off/pick up dictates what they play with and what activities they can participate in.

It seems to motivate the kids quite well and is self-correcting in regards to unwanted behaviors.
Personally, I don't use time outs as I honestly don't believe they are useful or helpful in 99% of the situations they are used for.

I have a house full of princess-y diva's right now and the "one up" and competitiveness is HUGE and although it gets under my skin it also provides incentive for the girls to want to be "big" since they all seem to want to be queen bee. lol!

[Blackcat31]

I should comment and add that upon drop off, I would just take her in matter of factly and place her in a spot she cant harm herself of others and let her be until she calms down. Much like CH said above. Once she is calm, then I would allow her to participate in the activities her behavior says she should play in.

[GirlMomma]

@PB&J I should’ve specified that this is only a drop off issue, she is pleasant the rest of the day and not violent towards others. She’s pretty whiney and you can tell she gets her way at home. DCM likes to call her princess 🙄

Cat Herder I do have a “cool down” spot for her to come in and sit down at if she isn’t ready to participate. It’s just been within the last week that she’s become violent, I’m assuming because she thinks she’ll get her way if she throws a fit like this.

Besides the drop off issue, they’re a decent family and she’s a decent child. DCM claims she’s always has separation issues, but I would think that would last all day, not 10 mins. I am not going to fight with a 3YO every day, especially one that’s kicking. Should I hand the two week notice out this afternoon or wait until she does it a third time since they are decent?

[Blackcat31]

Can you just take the child without a lot of conversation between anyone and set her in your cool down spot, walk away after telling her that she can come join the rest of the group when she's ready (calmed down and undressed)? Maybe handle it with as little fan fare as possible, Once she figures out she has no audience and no one to bargain with to get her way she will just suck it up and come on in.

[GirlMomma]

Blackcat31 I’ve been doing that since September, when she started.

DCP were carrying her to the door. Once I got to the door, I’d carry her into her cool down spot where she’d sit until she would say “okay, I’m ready now Miss GirlMomma!” she would then take her shoes and coat off and we would go on about our day. Last Wednesday was when she started the kicking and screaming fits and kicked another child, who wasn’t bothering her. That’s when I advised her parents I wouldn’t tolerate that behavior and told them to start talking DC up and getting to see her friends, etc. Thursday she didn’t kick, but she screamed. Friday it was perfect and today we’re back at square one.

[Cat Herder]

This is what is in the works for us, here. I think I will shut my doors if it passes.

Immediate Suspension
An immediate suspension for up to two days can be made at any time the provider determines a child is causing harm to himself/herself or others; or, a child is unable to successfully participate in program activities. The purpose of immediate suspension is to allow the program an opportunity to plan for the child’s successful participation in the program and should not be used as punishment. Programs can implement immediate suspension (up to two days) on a maximum of three occasions per child. No *State* prior approval is needed; however, the program’s *State* Consultant must be notified, using the Suspension Notification Form, that such action has been taken.

If all three immediate suspensions have been used and a child is a danger to self, peers, or staff, the child may be sent home for the day with a plan for the child’s successful return. Programs should use the following procedure:

• Contact their *State* Consultant immediately. The consultant will follow up with the Inclusion Coordinator to consider accommodations.
• Prepare all documentation of behaviors and strategies used to address concerns. The documentation must state the behavior, how often the behavior occurs, the interventions used, and the child’s response to the interventions.
• Schedule a conference with the child’s family to discuss strategies and options. Document the conference.

[Cat Herder]

This is why schools are being shot up now. Before, these kids went to Juvie Hall or Alternative Schools. No one will be getting a public school education, anymore. It is just sad and dangerous. These rules are already in public schools, now they are pushing it down to Early Childcare.

[Blackcat31]

This frustrates me!
Once again, parents are left out of the entire equation….
Give birth..done.
No longer responsible for anything * eye roll* 🙄

[GirlMomma]

Cat Herder so I actually thought to myself earlier about sending her home when she does this… but then I thought, “what is she learning?” She essentially gets what she wants.

What your state is trying to pass is dangerous to their peers and just plain stupid.

So I took everyone’s input into consideration. Since she’s not violent all day, I can separate the kids at drop off to prevent injury to others if she kicks that morning. Because the child just started the kicking last week, I told the parents I needed to see improvement by 1/14/22 or I will term. I’m closed most of this time anyways but this gives the child 10 school days after break to get it together. I’m going to do the fun “big kid activity” the next few days before break and see how she does with that. DCM said she has done this at previous daycares that aren’t with family.

Does this seem like normal behavior to any of you?? I know all kids transition differently. I had one that cried all day for three straight weeks. On the 15th day here, he magically stopped crying. I had another one that took three months. He’d cry just at drop off. This is the first time I’ve had one cry at drop off and get worse as time went on.

[Cat Herder]

Sending her home is not about teaching her, it is about teaching her parents. My understanding was that they were the instigators of this issue, since it only happens in the morning. The sooner they learn to knock it off, the sooner DCG has long lasting, concrete changes in her parents parenting style. That is what benefits DCG, and your program the most. Not some temporary fix that only adds to your workload.

[Blackcat31]

Cat Herder so I actually thought to myself earlier about sending her home when she does this… but then I thought, “what is she learning?” She essentially gets what she wants.

What your state is trying to pass is dangerous to their peers and just plain stupid.

So I took everyone’s input into consideration. Since she’s not violent all day, I can separate the kids at drop off to prevent injury to others if she kicks that morning. Because the child just started the kicking last week, I told the parents I needed to see improvement by 1/14/22 or I will term. I’m closed most of this time anyways but this gives the child 10 school days after break to get it together. I’m going to do the fun “big kid activity” the next few days before break and see how she does with that. DCM said she has done this at previous daycares that aren’t with family.

Does this seem like normal behavior to any of you?? I know all kids transition differently. I had one that cried all day for three straight weeks. On the 15th day here, he magically stopped crying. I had another one that took three months. He’d cry just at drop off. This is the first time I’ve had one cry at drop off and get worse as time went on.

In regards to sending her home… it’s not about what she would learn being sent home but about what the parents would learn Sometimes parents don’t give a hoot until it becomes their problem and right now it’s only a problem for you. kwim?

Im not saying you should send her home (unless it gets bad) but just wanted to comment on the logic behind sending a kid home from a different perspective

IMHO, it really doesn’t seem to be abnormal for a 3 yr old that’s used to ruling the roost. It’s hard to go from being the boss to not being in charge. The violence isn’t necessarily normal but it is something I’ve seen plenty of times before.

If you can try the “big kid fun” thing for a while, you can get a better idea on whether this is something you can/can’t fix.

[GirlMomma]

Blackcat31 that makes sense! If it does come to that maybe they’ll do something to discipline her for it - right now, I am the bad guy. Dad just stands there and watches or walks away. He’ll say “no we don’t act like that,” but that’s about it. Perhaps that’s the reason I’m frustrated… it’s with the parents lack of discipline rather than the child’s actions?

I think it’s a fair resolution with a fair amount of time.

[Cat Herder]

Thank you for clarifying my point. You know how I think so well. lol!!! Parents sometimes need motivation to parent better.

[GirlMomma]

Cat Herder this isn’t meant to sound harsh, so please don’t take it out of context. Would you consider her parents the instigators? If so, why?

Is it their pet names or lack of parenting when it does happen?

LOL now I feel like I’m going to regret giving it a few weeks 😂 I am hoping that this kicks the parents into gear knowing that they have a deadline.

[Cat Herder]

I am using your own words a my guide. "I am the bad guy. Dad just stands there and watches or walks away. He’ll say “no we don’t act like that,” but that’s about it."

That is Permissive parenting and you need him to grow into an Authoritative parent. It isn't uncommon or even remotely shameful, it is something that all parents have to learn. It is learned through consequences for the parent, not the child. https://www.parentingforbrain.com/4-...enting-styles/

The four types of parenting styles are:

• Authoritative
• Authoritarian (or Disciplinarian)
• Permissive (or Indulgent)
• Neglectful (or Uninvolved)
• 

[GirlMomma]

Thank you!! That is what I wanted clarification on. I don’t want to be too emotional! 😂 but yes, this is exactly what it is!

[GirlMomma]

Not sure if I did the right thing or not… same child.

I have had DCG come in and do a fun activity. It’s worked GREAT! No issues at all, even after break. Monday she was visibly sad but not throwing a fit.

Today, my door flings open - which is odd for me since all exchanges are done outside. It’s DCM with DCG, DCG is throwing a fit. I tell DCM, “Why don’t you go outside and try again.” DCM says “oh yeah, I forgot.” They go outside and stand there with the screen door wide open. DCG is screaming and throwing a fit on the porch. I do MY job and get my other DCK away from her. DCM is looking at me like I am supposed to do something and tells me DCD is hospitalized so DCG didn’t get any sleep last night (red flag) and she has another appointment to go to so she needs DCG to stay here. After hearing all of that and mostly the exhausted part, I tell DCM “Maybe she shouldn’t be here then because she hasn’t had any issues like this for several weeks.” DCG continues to scream and stomp. DCM is pleading with her and begging her to stay here with her friends because she “needs DCG to be here today.” Again, I am corralling my other DCK, since this is DCM’s issue. DCM asks me if she can try to leave her here and then if she doesn’t improve she will have someone come get her. I firmly told DCM “without much sleep and the fact DCG hasn’t acted out like this in a while, I’d expect a phone call and have a back up plan ready to go. We’ve discussed before this behavior will not be tolerated.” At that time another DCP came onto the porch for drop off so I went to take that child in. DCM got pissed off and said “I’ll just take her with me!” And stormed off of my porch. The other parent noticed it and made a comment - I awkwardly smiled at the other parent and took the child. DCM sat outside for a few minutes, I assume still trying to beg and plead with the DCG, but finally pulled off.

Was this the right thing to do or would you have handled it differently?

[Annalee]

Child care providers are NOT miracle workers; at some point, the parent has to parent and I think this was an instance where the parent was forced to 'deal' with the issue.

[e.j.]

At first, I was going to say I might have been a bit more empathetic and taken dcg given that dcd is in the hospital but it would have depended on WHY he was hospitalized. (Covid? Not a chance! Heart attack? Sure.) The truth is, I know I would have taken the dcg and probably spent the day pissed at myself and wishing I hadn't! Reading your additional replies about the situation, I absolutely think you did the right thing for you and the other kids in your care. The fact that she's not been reliable when you've called for pick up in the past was the clincher for me. What's that saying about past behavior being a good predictor of future behavior...?

[GirlMomma]

Annalee thank you. I think BC said it best: “THIS is exactly why we want parents to be the ones in charge of their children.... when life happens (as it clearly does) then the child follows instructions and does as told.”

[GirlMomma]

e.j. Thank you! DCD had a non-life threatening condition that he was hospitalized for. It’s not COVID related, either. I’m 90% sure that DCD was also with DCM (and driving) at drop off. I can’t be sure, my cameras didn’t pick up the driver and I only saw the outline of someone in the drivers seat. The outline looked like it could be his.

I am very empathetic, sometimes I empathize way too much. So when I actually stand up for myself and my business, I tend second guess myself and my decision.

I’m doing things differently this year and learning to let the parent handle their child at pick up and drop off is one of them. Normally, I would’ve picked up this 35 lb child while she’s kicking and screaming. In the process I would’ve twisted my back and screwed it up trying to get her in the door. Then I would’ve been mad at myself for taking a screaming kid, throwing the rest of the group off all day and I would’ve dealt with back pain for the next week.

There’s also a high likelihood, that because of the appointment and hospitalization, they would’ve been late for pick up. I would’ve been pissed about that and I’d have to term them because they’re at the last strike on that too.

[e.j.]

I am very empathetic, sometimes I empathize way too much. So when I actually stand up for myself and my business, I tend second guess myself and my decision.

...Normally, I would’ve picked up this 35 lb child while she’s kicking and screaming. In the process I would’ve twisted my back and screwed it up trying to get her in the door. Then I would’ve been mad at myself for taking a screaming kid, throwing the rest of the group off all day and I would’ve dealt with back pain for the next week.

Me in a nutshell! lol I've been working on my backbone for the past 27 years (and it's much stronger than it used to be when I first started doing day care) but I'll probably retire before it gets as strong as it should be! Good for you for standing up for yourself!

[GirlMomma]

It’ll come! Just don’t second guess yourself! ❤️

[Blackcat31]

Me in a nutshell! lol I've been working on my backbone for the past 27 years (and it's much stronger than it used to be when I first started doing day care) but I'll probably retire before it gets as strong as it should be! Good for you for standing up for yourself!

There is no right or wrong answer
That IS the beauty of this business.

Providers that truly care and can be empathetic to specific situations are absolutely priceless but that same character trait can (and does) come at a personal cost and adds tremendous stress to this job.

How big is the [personal] cost?
How much added stress?

The answers are wholly dependent on each provider
(and which of the 5 stages of learning they’re currently at)

…..again, the beauty of this profession.